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	<title>Comments for Nonformality</title>
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	<link>http://www.nonformality.org</link>
	<description>Education &#38; Learning</description>
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		<title>Comment on Manifesto for Creativity and Innovation by Goran</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/manifesto/#comment-20683</link>
		<dc:creator>Goran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1184#comment-20683</guid>
		<description>Thanks Andreas, I was not aware about this Manifesto. it seems the authors were not innovative in getting the word out (as you point in your own reflection)
This brings me to thew main challenge here: Being innovative in promoting innovation is a very being challenge. I am afraid that the text and the core messages - irrespective of their relevance and appropriateness- are a boring read. If only each of the 7 core actions  was accompanied by  a small touch of communication innovation .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andreas, I was not aware about this Manifesto. it seems the authors were not innovative in getting the word out (as you point in your own reflection)<br />
This brings me to thew main challenge here: Being innovative in promoting innovation is a very being challenge. I am afraid that the text and the core messages &#8211; irrespective of their relevance and appropriateness- are a boring read. If only each of the 7 core actions  was accompanied by  a small touch of communication innovation .</p>
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		<title>Comment on My Metropathology by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/02/metropathology/#comment-20635</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1708#comment-20635</guid>
		<description>&lt;img class=&quot;alignright&quot; style=&quot;margin-bottom:10px&quot; src=&quot;http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/metropathology-reloaded.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Metropathology Reloaded&quot; title=&quot;Metropathology Reloaded&quot; /&gt;

Interesting how my second attempt, just a few hours later, is so different...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" style="margin-bottom:10px" src="http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/metropathology-reloaded.jpg" alt="Metropathology Reloaded" title="Metropathology Reloaded" /></p>
<p>Interesting how my second attempt, just a few hours later, is so different&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Revising Blooms Taxonomy by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/02/revising-bloom/#comment-20634</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1714#comment-20634</guid>
		<description>&lt;img class=&quot;alignright&quot; style=&quot;margin-bottom:10px&quot; src=&quot;http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-digital-taxonomy.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Blooms Digital Taxonomy&quot; title=&quot;Blooms Digital Taxonomy&quot; /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;

Bloom&#039;s digital taxonomy &#8211; concept map by Andrew Churches &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Educational Origami Wiki&lt;/a&gt; &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Source&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" style="margin-bottom:10px" src="http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-digital-taxonomy.jpg" alt="Blooms Digital Taxonomy" title="Blooms Digital Taxonomy" /></p>
<p></p>
<p>Bloom&#8217;s digital taxonomy &#8211; concept map by Andrew Churches | <a href="http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/" rel="nofollow">Educational Origami Wiki</a> | <a href="http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy" rel="nofollow">Source</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Revising Blooms Taxonomy by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/02/revising-bloom/#comment-20633</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1714#comment-20633</guid>
		<description>&lt;img class=&quot;alignright&quot; style=&quot;margin-bottom:5px&quot; src=&quot;http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-domains.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;Blooms Taxonomy Mindmap&quot; title=&quot;Blooms Taxonomy Mindmap&quot; /&gt;

&lt;br /&gt;

Bloom&#039;s learning domains &#8211; mindmap by Andrew Churches &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Educational Origami Wiki&lt;/a&gt; &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Source&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" style="margin-bottom:5px" src="http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-domains.jpg" alt="Blooms Taxonomy Mindmap" title="Blooms Taxonomy Mindmap" /></p>
<p></p>
<p>Bloom&#8217;s learning domains &#8211; mindmap by Andrew Churches | <a href="http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/" rel="nofollow">Educational Origami Wiki</a> | <a href="http://edorigami.wikispaces.com/Bloom%27s+Digital+Taxonomy" rel="nofollow">Source</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Revising Blooms Taxonomy by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/02/revising-bloom/#comment-20632</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1714#comment-20632</guid>
		<description>&lt;img class=&quot;alignright&quot; src=&quot;http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-taxonomy-rose.png&quot; alt=&quot;Blooms Taxonomy Rose&quot; title=&quot;Blooms Taxonomy Rose&quot; /&gt;

Visualisation of Bloom&#039;s Taxonomy by John Traverso &#124; Wikipedia &#124; &lt;a href=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Blooms_rose.svg/2000px-Blooms_rose.svg.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Large version&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.nonformality.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/blooms-taxonomy-rose.png" alt="Blooms Taxonomy Rose" title="Blooms Taxonomy Rose" /></p>
<p>Visualisation of Bloom&#8217;s Taxonomy by John Traverso | Wikipedia | <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Blooms_rose.svg/2000px-Blooms_rose.svg.png" rel="nofollow">Large version</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Rethinking self-assessment (Part 1) by Quote by Peter Drucker</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/self-assessment-1/#comment-20613</link>
		<dc:creator>Quote by Peter Drucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1605#comment-20613</guid>
		<description>“Knowledge has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes.” – &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peter Drucker&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Knowledge has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes.” – <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker" rel="nofollow">Peter Drucker</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Rethinking self-assessment (Part 1) by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/self-assessment-1/#comment-20607</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1605#comment-20607</guid>
		<description>Yes indeed, we have worked with self-assessment instruments in European youth training for roughly ten years - as trainers and participants, as learners and evaluators. All those ten years I have never felt like ‘yes! this helps in further thinking’ either…

I have spent much time and many discussions in trying to figure out why that is so, and not only have I found that I am not alone in doubting the usefulness of the current self-assessment strategy as a learner, but also that I am not alone in doubting the usefulness as a trainer and educator.

&lt;strong&gt;Disrespect? Please.&lt;/strong&gt;
Bringing these discussions out in the open is anything but a sign of disrespect &#039;to those people (trainers and participants) who have been working with these instruments and have been evaluating their experiences in order to improve the tools&#039;. I don&#039;t want my intentions to be misunderstood or my thoughts to be misconstructed that way.

That a rigorous evaluation of these instruments is still missing&#8212;after ten years of educational practice and several educational evaluations taking a critical stance at the self-assessment approach&#8212;that &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a sign of disrespect.

&lt;strong&gt;Complementarity of embedded and external analysis&lt;/strong&gt;
It&#039;s not about analysis and research being the only tools that guarantee quality, but it is their absence that delays discussion and hinders development. There is a huge difference between trainers and participants involved in particular educational processes working on improving a specific instrument for the purpose of usability improvements, and a more general approach that reviews the entire range of instruments and tests them for consistency, verifiability and rigour.

Obviously, not much would happen if trainers and participants chose to ignore and push aside self-assessment instruments, and did not work on improving them for their practice. But that is not the element of further development that is currently absent, as you rightly pointed out.

It would, in other words, be a most welcome sign of respect to all the work done if a study was commissioned&#8212;similar to Fennes/Otten and Ohana/Otten, possibly&#8212;which, at long last, picks up some of the many open questions around self-assessment.

&lt;strong&gt;Time &lt;em&gt;versus&lt;/em&gt; speed&lt;/strong&gt;
I recognise that some of the instruments have been around for some time, and quite some of these instruments were &#039;discussed a lot amongst trainers and with participants.&#039;

But somehow there is never enough time for this, is there? The development of these instruments is always embedded in the work of a team, or the context of a session… I have myself been part of too many discussions that had to be cut off&#8212;and had to cut some myself. 

Not once has there been enough time to engage in sufficiently long discussions around self-assessment that are not exclusively aimed at further developing one specific instrument and that would lead to questions or conclusions that were written and shared widely.

&lt;strong&gt;Quality standards&lt;/strong&gt;
I agree, the field has some clues what the job is about, and some good writing exists on quality standards in particular for European youth trainers. They are not agreed, yet, and there is plenty of discussion around what particular standards may or may not mean, but yes: enough material to provide context.

&lt;strong&gt;Scary research&lt;/strong&gt;
Hehe, the sentence sounds a bit scary when taken out of context:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Research can prove what common sense and practical experience tell us: none of this is true, none of these assumptions hold, they crumble at first sight.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But within its context, it&#039;s unfortunately not wrong: 

Firstly, there is research showcasing that knowledge, skills and attitudes are not enough to capture the competence of a person, for example in the framework of UNESCO&#039;s DeSeCo Project &#8211; in other words: a trainer with a perfectly acceptable set of knowledge, skills and attitudes may still be a crappy trainer even though the self-assessment indicates otherwise.

Secondly, there is books full of discussions around the dilemma with numerical scales and, while they suggest that the difference between levels 8 and 9 are the same for everyone, the individual judgment of respondents is miles apart &#8211; in other words: five trainers assessing their competence in the area of writing with 8=very good, will very likely display pretty diverse writing skills.

Thirdly, there is evidence already in the evaluations of our own courses in our own field that educators and learners are often not aware what a specific competence entails when doing their self-assessment &#8211; in other words: the more people learn about a competence, their assessment tends to become more self-critical and sceptical.

&lt;strong&gt;New instruments&lt;/strong&gt;
Yes, indeed, what a challenge! I hope to find the time soon to polish some of my ideas around alternative instruments...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes indeed, we have worked with self-assessment instruments in European youth training for roughly ten years &#8211; as trainers and participants, as learners and evaluators. All those ten years I have never felt like ‘yes! this helps in further thinking’ either…</p>
<p>I have spent much time and many discussions in trying to figure out why that is so, and not only have I found that I am not alone in doubting the usefulness of the current self-assessment strategy as a learner, but also that I am not alone in doubting the usefulness as a trainer and educator.</p>
<p><strong>Disrespect? Please.</strong><br />
Bringing these discussions out in the open is anything but a sign of disrespect &#8216;to those people (trainers and participants) who have been working with these instruments and have been evaluating their experiences in order to improve the tools&#8217;. I don&#8217;t want my intentions to be misunderstood or my thoughts to be misconstructed that way.</p>
<p>That a rigorous evaluation of these instruments is still missing&#8212;after ten years of educational practice and several educational evaluations taking a critical stance at the self-assessment approach&#8212;that <em>is</em> a sign of disrespect.</p>
<p><strong>Complementarity of embedded and external analysis</strong><br />
It&#8217;s not about analysis and research being the only tools that guarantee quality, but it is their absence that delays discussion and hinders development. There is a huge difference between trainers and participants involved in particular educational processes working on improving a specific instrument for the purpose of usability improvements, and a more general approach that reviews the entire range of instruments and tests them for consistency, verifiability and rigour.</p>
<p>Obviously, not much would happen if trainers and participants chose to ignore and push aside self-assessment instruments, and did not work on improving them for their practice. But that is not the element of further development that is currently absent, as you rightly pointed out.</p>
<p>It would, in other words, be a most welcome sign of respect to all the work done if a study was commissioned&#8212;similar to Fennes/Otten and Ohana/Otten, possibly&#8212;which, at long last, picks up some of the many open questions around self-assessment.</p>
<p><strong>Time <em>versus</em> speed</strong><br />
I recognise that some of the instruments have been around for some time, and quite some of these instruments were &#8216;discussed a lot amongst trainers and with participants.&#8217;</p>
<p>But somehow there is never enough time for this, is there? The development of these instruments is always embedded in the work of a team, or the context of a session… I have myself been part of too many discussions that had to be cut off&#8212;and had to cut some myself. </p>
<p>Not once has there been enough time to engage in sufficiently long discussions around self-assessment that are not exclusively aimed at further developing one specific instrument and that would lead to questions or conclusions that were written and shared widely.</p>
<p><strong>Quality standards</strong><br />
I agree, the field has some clues what the job is about, and some good writing exists on quality standards in particular for European youth trainers. They are not agreed, yet, and there is plenty of discussion around what particular standards may or may not mean, but yes: enough material to provide context.</p>
<p><strong>Scary research</strong><br />
Hehe, the sentence sounds a bit scary when taken out of context:</p>
<blockquote><p>Research can prove what common sense and practical experience tell us: none of this is true, none of these assumptions hold, they crumble at first sight.</p></blockquote>
<p>But within its context, it&#8217;s unfortunately not wrong: </p>
<p>Firstly, there is research showcasing that knowledge, skills and attitudes are not enough to capture the competence of a person, for example in the framework of UNESCO&#8217;s DeSeCo Project &#8211; in other words: a trainer with a perfectly acceptable set of knowledge, skills and attitudes may still be a crappy trainer even though the self-assessment indicates otherwise.</p>
<p>Secondly, there is books full of discussions around the dilemma with numerical scales and, while they suggest that the difference between levels 8 and 9 are the same for everyone, the individual judgment of respondents is miles apart &#8211; in other words: five trainers assessing their competence in the area of writing with 8=very good, will very likely display pretty diverse writing skills.</p>
<p>Thirdly, there is evidence already in the evaluations of our own courses in our own field that educators and learners are often not aware what a specific competence entails when doing their self-assessment &#8211; in other words: the more people learn about a competence, their assessment tends to become more self-critical and sceptical.</p>
<p><strong>New instruments</strong><br />
Yes, indeed, what a challenge! I hope to find the time soon to polish some of my ideas around alternative instruments&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Rethinking self-assessment (Part 1) by Paul Kloosterman</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/self-assessment-1/#comment-20602</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Kloosterman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1605#comment-20602</guid>
		<description>Took me some time to come with a reaction to this.  But still the first it seems! My problem was that I didn&#039;t get excited when reading this, not like &#039;yes! this helps in further thinking&#039;. 

My first problem is the picture that is painted. &#039;Instruments are developed at high speed&#039;. I don&#039;t want to go into a discussion about the definition of &#039;high speed&#039; but the first time that I worked in a training course with a Self Perception Inventory and a Personal Development Plan was in 2001/2002, so 8-9 years ago. Since that time in training courses for/of trainers it became a kind of common practice to use these instruments. In these years both the Personal Development Plan as the Self Perception Inventory were changed, improved and new more complex and more simple versions came out. Discussed a lot amongst trainers and with participants. I think they even got better! Since the beginning a need was expressed for other and more instruments that could help people to assess themselves. &#039;Not only instruments where you have to fill in a form!&#039;. New tools were developed but also already existing methods were found. Still in the field the need for more instruments is expressed, especially after  the introduction of the Youthpass in the Youth in Action programme. 
Not so much &#039;high speed&#039; anyway for me.

&#039;A rigorous evaluation of these instruments... is as much missing....&#039;. A wonderful sentence but not very respectful to those people (trainers and participants) who have been working with these instruments and have been evaluating their experiences in order to improve the tools. I will be the first one to support further analysis, evaluation and research on this but the last one saying that only analysis- and research reports guarantee improvement of quality. 
&#039;The absence of quality standards&#039;. When that means quality standards agreed on in the European educational field, signed and stamped, I agree. They are absent. But I would not wait for that agreement to start (and continue) developing better self-assessment instruments. We are lucky in our field that many people in different constellations have been thinking about quality standards. The good thing is that they even wrote their thoughts down. It&#039;s no problem at all to offer to participants in training courses material which give them the possibility to assess themselves against quality criteria. It&#039;s not that the field has no clue what the job is about. 
&#039;Research can prove what common sense and practical experience tell us: none of this is true, none of these assumptions hold, they crumble at first sight.&#039;  
First of all I get a bit scared of research that can prove that &#039;non of this is true&#039;. Especially when this is written after three statements following an assumption that I find quite doubtful. 
I would be rather in favour of research that would join the forces of those people who would like to assist learners in the best possible way to take responsibility for their own learning.
So..... it&#039;s above all the first part of your last sentence I&#039;m supporting: taking on the challenge to develop some ideas for alternative tools!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Took me some time to come with a reaction to this.  But still the first it seems! My problem was that I didn&#8217;t get excited when reading this, not like &#8216;yes! this helps in further thinking&#8217;. </p>
<p>My first problem is the picture that is painted. &#8216;Instruments are developed at high speed&#8217;. I don&#8217;t want to go into a discussion about the definition of &#8216;high speed&#8217; but the first time that I worked in a training course with a Self Perception Inventory and a Personal Development Plan was in 2001/2002, so 8-9 years ago. Since that time in training courses for/of trainers it became a kind of common practice to use these instruments. In these years both the Personal Development Plan as the Self Perception Inventory were changed, improved and new more complex and more simple versions came out. Discussed a lot amongst trainers and with participants. I think they even got better! Since the beginning a need was expressed for other and more instruments that could help people to assess themselves. &#8216;Not only instruments where you have to fill in a form!&#8217;. New tools were developed but also already existing methods were found. Still in the field the need for more instruments is expressed, especially after  the introduction of the Youthpass in the Youth in Action programme.<br />
Not so much &#8216;high speed&#8217; anyway for me.</p>
<p>&#8216;A rigorous evaluation of these instruments&#8230; is as much missing&#8230;.&#8217;. A wonderful sentence but not very respectful to those people (trainers and participants) who have been working with these instruments and have been evaluating their experiences in order to improve the tools. I will be the first one to support further analysis, evaluation and research on this but the last one saying that only analysis- and research reports guarantee improvement of quality.<br />
&#8216;The absence of quality standards&#8217;. When that means quality standards agreed on in the European educational field, signed and stamped, I agree. They are absent. But I would not wait for that agreement to start (and continue) developing better self-assessment instruments. We are lucky in our field that many people in different constellations have been thinking about quality standards. The good thing is that they even wrote their thoughts down. It&#8217;s no problem at all to offer to participants in training courses material which give them the possibility to assess themselves against quality criteria. It&#8217;s not that the field has no clue what the job is about.<br />
&#8216;Research can prove what common sense and practical experience tell us: none of this is true, none of these assumptions hold, they crumble at first sight.&#8217;<br />
First of all I get a bit scared of research that can prove that &#8216;non of this is true&#8217;. Especially when this is written after three statements following an assumption that I find quite doubtful.<br />
I would be rather in favour of research that would join the forces of those people who would like to assist learners in the best possible way to take responsibility for their own learning.<br />
So&#8230;.. it&#8217;s above all the first part of your last sentence I&#8217;m supporting: taking on the challenge to develop some ideas for alternative tools!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Defining nonformal learning by Mara</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20579</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20579</guid>
		<description>Is all that is not formal and not informal non-formal?
I have the feeling (but a feeling is not that scientific when it comes down to definitions) that my answer would be NO. 
@Andreas: well, a &quot;definite definition&quot; :))
I think there should be no fear once you&#039;re engaging in defining something that there may be something else having those features. In several posts it looks like is NFE has a feature that also FE has, then that feature seems less connected to NFE. Which I think looks a bit like an error of logic.
I do think nowadays when we define concepts we more and more often find a continuum, at least in education. And also, you may know this, but the whole science of terminology deals nowadays with a fairly different approach than, say, 50 years ago, so it is not so important to find the last and final fundamental truth about concepts but to find those most relevant from a sociolinguistical perspective. I guess this is also the reason why the people who wrote here refer to the European connotations of NFE.
@Musa: I still think 8-year olds deserve all the respect adult do. And I also think that what often happens is that when you don&#039;t know how to transparently share power with learners, there may be a tendecy to deny they can manage power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is all that is not formal and not informal non-formal?<br />
I have the feeling (but a feeling is not that scientific when it comes down to definitions) that my answer would be NO.<br />
@Andreas: well, a &#8220;definite definition&#8221; :))<br />
I think there should be no fear once you&#8217;re engaging in defining something that there may be something else having those features. In several posts it looks like is NFE has a feature that also FE has, then that feature seems less connected to NFE. Which I think looks a bit like an error of logic.<br />
I do think nowadays when we define concepts we more and more often find a continuum, at least in education. And also, you may know this, but the whole science of terminology deals nowadays with a fairly different approach than, say, 50 years ago, so it is not so important to find the last and final fundamental truth about concepts but to find those most relevant from a sociolinguistical perspective. I guess this is also the reason why the people who wrote here refer to the European connotations of NFE.<br />
@Musa: I still think 8-year olds deserve all the respect adult do. And I also think that what often happens is that when you don&#8217;t know how to transparently share power with learners, there may be a tendecy to deny they can manage power.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Defining nonformal learning by Musa Akgul</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20572</link>
		<dc:creator>Musa Akgul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20572</guid>
		<description>I totally agree mainly with last words of Suncana, that the NFE is very important and the FE is very important, too. When it comes to such discussion it became a huge dilemma to me...
For me there is this power issue in both and the power of the power issue differs in both but maybe it is a need for teachers to have more power in FE than the learners and it depends so much on age and environment. Primary school would be a simple example, what would happen if the power was given to the students who are 8 years old? I do not know, I am not competent enough to answer this question...
How would be the learning and the quality of education if the NFE was used at universities and if the power had given to the learners other then the professors? Again I am not sure but it sounds really logical when I am taking the age and the life experience of that students (who are at university), but as I said still not sure...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree mainly with last words of Suncana, that the NFE is very important and the FE is very important, too. When it comes to such discussion it became a huge dilemma to me&#8230;<br />
For me there is this power issue in both and the power of the power issue differs in both but maybe it is a need for teachers to have more power in FE than the learners and it depends so much on age and environment. Primary school would be a simple example, what would happen if the power was given to the students who are 8 years old? I do not know, I am not competent enough to answer this question&#8230;<br />
How would be the learning and the quality of education if the NFE was used at universities and if the power had given to the learners other then the professors? Again I am not sure but it sounds really logical when I am taking the age and the life experience of that students (who are at university), but as I said still not sure&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing for (y)eu by Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/jealousy/#comment-20549</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1639#comment-20549</guid>
		<description>Alles nur, um Dich mal auf meinen Blog zu locken, Christian :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alles nur, um Dich mal auf meinen Blog zu locken, Christian :)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing for (y)eu by Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/jealousy/#comment-20548</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1639#comment-20548</guid>
		<description>Difficult environment? Where? Who. What makes you say that. Ah und so, neidisch bist? Ich interpretiere das jetzt mal ganz unzweideutig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Difficult environment? Where? Who. What makes you say that. Ah und so, neidisch bist? Ich interpretiere das jetzt mal ganz unzweideutig.</p>
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		<title>Comment on So long Facebook by Electronic Frontier Foundation</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2008/01/so-long-facebook/#comment-20541</link>
		<dc:creator>Electronic Frontier Foundation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/index.php/2008/01/so-long-facebook/#comment-20541</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Facebook&#039;s New Privacy Changes: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly&lt;/a&gt; by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eff.org/about/staff/kevin-bankston&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kevin Bankston&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Five months after it first announced coming privacy changes this past summer, Facebook is finally rolling out a new set of revamped privacy settings for its 350 million users. The social networking site has rightly been criticized for its confusing privacy settings, most notably in a must-read report by the Canadian Privacy Commissioner issued in July and most recently by a Norwegian consumer protection agency. We&#039;re glad to see Facebook is attempting to respond to those privacy criticisms with these changes, which are going live this evening. Unfortunately, several of the claimed privacy &quot;improvements&quot; have created new and serious privacy problems for users of the popular social network service.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly" rel="nofollow">Facebook&#8217;s New Privacy Changes: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly</a> by <a href="http://www.eff.org/about/staff/kevin-bankston" rel="nofollow">Kevin Bankston</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Five months after it first announced coming privacy changes this past summer, Facebook is finally rolling out a new set of revamped privacy settings for its 350 million users. The social networking site has rightly been criticized for its confusing privacy settings, most notably in a must-read report by the Canadian Privacy Commissioner issued in July and most recently by a Norwegian consumer protection agency. We&#8217;re glad to see Facebook is attempting to respond to those privacy criticisms with these changes, which are going live this evening. Unfortunately, several of the claimed privacy &#8220;improvements&#8221; have created new and serious privacy problems for users of the popular social network service.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>Comment on Writing for (y)eu by Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/jealousy/#comment-20540</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1639#comment-20540</guid>
		<description>Tibo,
Pleasure! Thanks to you and the team for doing such splendid work in an usually-difficult environment - and sharing the fun parts of it!
Andreas</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tibo,<br />
Pleasure! Thanks to you and the team for doing such splendid work in an usually-difficult environment &#8211; and sharing the fun parts of it!<br />
Andreas</p>
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		<title>Comment on Writing for (y)eu by Tibo</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/jealousy/#comment-20537</link>
		<dc:creator>Tibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1639#comment-20537</guid>
		<description>Hi,
Thanks for your support! we&#039;re happy you like it.
Best,
T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Thanks for your support! we&#8217;re happy you like it.<br />
Best,<br />
T.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Defining trouble with definitions by Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/defining-trouble/#comment-20535</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1624#comment-20535</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20455&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;As I said&lt;/a&gt; in the discussion about the definition of non-formal education and learning:

We facilitate participatory and learner-centred education with the noble aim to empower people, and our educational approach is therefore necessarily rooted in fair power relations between educators and learners.

But without a clear definition the power leverage will always be on our side, it will always be in favour of the educator. Being learner-centred should also mean being able to clearly explain why and what we do and how – not after or during an educational experience, but before.

Until we have a clear definition, we betray our own principles &#8211; we limit the participatory elements of the educational experience we provide. 

&lt;strong&gt;We do not quite walk the talk, do we?&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20455" rel="nofollow">As I said</a> in the discussion about the definition of non-formal education and learning:</p>
<p>We facilitate participatory and learner-centred education with the noble aim to empower people, and our educational approach is therefore necessarily rooted in fair power relations between educators and learners.</p>
<p>But without a clear definition the power leverage will always be on our side, it will always be in favour of the educator. Being learner-centred should also mean being able to clearly explain why and what we do and how – not after or during an educational experience, but before.</p>
<p>Until we have a clear definition, we betray our own principles &#8211; we limit the participatory elements of the educational experience we provide. </p>
<p><strong>We do not quite walk the talk, do we?</strong></p>
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		<title>Comment on Defining trouble with definitions by Bastian</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/defining-trouble/#comment-20534</link>
		<dc:creator>Bastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1624#comment-20534</guid>
		<description>I think one of the rather important questions we should ask ourselves before we go into the exercise or hacking on words, fine-tuning meanings, sieve thru redundancies, etc. should be: Why?!
What purpose has it to define non-formal education and for whom? Is it for within the &#039;szene&#039;, so we can debate with a better vocabulary and sharpen it&#039;s meaning to improve our praxis? Is it for &#039;outside&#039;, so we can describe within one minute what we do and what added value it has?

Who wants the definition? I think the answer for that will bring us a step further to actually producing one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the rather important questions we should ask ourselves before we go into the exercise or hacking on words, fine-tuning meanings, sieve thru redundancies, etc. should be: Why?!<br />
What purpose has it to define non-formal education and for whom? Is it for within the &#8217;szene&#8217;, so we can debate with a better vocabulary and sharpen it&#8217;s meaning to improve our praxis? Is it for &#8216;outside&#8217;, so we can describe within one minute what we do and what added value it has?</p>
<p>Who wants the definition? I think the answer for that will bring us a step further to actually producing one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing the system by Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/change/#comment-20529</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1614#comment-20529</guid>
		<description>I wish I knew...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I knew&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on On learning to learn by Quality Study (2008)</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/thinking/#comment-20521</link>
		<dc:creator>Quality Study (2008)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1102#comment-20521</guid>
		<description>From Fennes, Helmut and Otten, Hendrik (2008): &lt;em&gt;Quality in non-formal education and training in the field of European youth work.&lt;/em&gt; Available online at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.salto-youth.net/trainercompetencestudy/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;salto-youth.net&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The European Union defines eight key competences for lifelong learning and provides a general definition of competence in the context of “Education and Training 2010”. 

[…] 

it is indispensable to study the Commission’s and the Council’s action programme on Lifelong Learning and the relevant papers – including the reasoning for the integration of key competences in this political context. 

[…] 

Arguments for the promotion of business and economic development, the labour market and employment prevail. The Commission itself set this course by giving reasons for the need of lifelong learning first and foremost in the context of the Lisbon strategy and, most importantly, in the “Education &amp; Training 2010” work programme. 

&lt;strong&gt;The shifting of the main focus from present knowledge transfer to transferable competences is intentional; the tendency of placing an economic value on knowledge is proceeding.&lt;/strong&gt;

All mentions of key competences and lifelong learning being necessary for social cohesion and active citizenship are deduced from this priority of economic orientation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(emphasis added)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Fennes, Helmut and Otten, Hendrik (2008): <em>Quality in non-formal education and training in the field of European youth work.</em> Available online at <a href="http://www.salto-youth.net/trainercompetencestudy/" rel="nofollow">salto-youth.net</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The European Union defines eight key competences for lifelong learning and provides a general definition of competence in the context of “Education and Training 2010”. </p>
<p>[…] </p>
<p>it is indispensable to study the Commission’s and the Council’s action programme on Lifelong Learning and the relevant papers – including the reasoning for the integration of key competences in this political context. </p>
<p>[…] </p>
<p>Arguments for the promotion of business and economic development, the labour market and employment prevail. The Commission itself set this course by giving reasons for the need of lifelong learning first and foremost in the context of the Lisbon strategy and, most importantly, in the “Education &amp; Training 2010” work programme. </p>
<p><strong>The shifting of the main focus from present knowledge transfer to transferable competences is intentional; the tendency of placing an economic value on knowledge is proceeding.</strong></p>
<p>All mentions of key competences and lifelong learning being necessary for social cohesion and active citizenship are deduced from this priority of economic orientation.</p></blockquote>
<p>(emphasis added)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing the system by Kristin</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2010/01/change/#comment-20519</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1614#comment-20519</guid>
		<description>Hahaha, that&#039;s so cool and also true. But I still hope that it is possible to do so. Maybe not the whole system but parts of it. Nevertheless, the danger of being change by the system is high, very high.

So what do we do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hahaha, that&#8217;s so cool and also true. But I still hope that it is possible to do so. Maybe not the whole system but parts of it. Nevertheless, the danger of being change by the system is high, very high.</p>
<p>So what do we do?</p>
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