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	<title>Comments on: Defining nonformal learning</title>
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	<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/</link>
	<description>Education &#38; Learning</description>
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		<title>By: Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20981</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WHAT? </p>
<p>Definition of non-formal learning: &#8220;Learning which is embedded in planned activities not explicitly designated as learning (in terms of learning objectives, learning time or learning support). Non-formal learning is intentional from the learner’s point of view.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cedefop.europa.eu/EN/publications/13125.aspx" rel="nofollow">Source: Cedefop (2008): Terminology of European education and training policy. A selection of 100 key terms. Page 133.</a></p>
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		<title>By: A new piece at Infed</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20972</link>
		<dc:creator>A new piece at Infed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.infed.org/informal_education/informality_and_formalization.htm" rel="nofollow">In a new piece at the encyclopaedia of informal education</a>, Reinhard Zürcher conceptualizes teaching-learning processes by means of a continuum that covers the whole range from informal to formal processes. Instead of the usual descriptive interpretation, he uses an analytical perspective that relates the terms informal and formal teaching and learning to the notion of form. ‘Formalization’, interpreted as generalization of the characteristics of the teaching-learning process, is identified to be the general variable of the continuum. Similarly, informality is interpreted as individualization. The spectrum of possible actors in teaching is extended and the teaching process is intertwined with the learning process. To finish Reinhard Zürcher splits the continuum of the teaching-learning process into its constituting criteria and, by abandoning the term non-formal learning, unifies the process.</p>
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		<title>By: suncana</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20942</link>
		<dc:creator>suncana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 17:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked the article a lot. And I could agree that one of the core essences for distinguishing FE and NFE could be the process like it is described in the article.  (The process in which a teacher gives and explains all relevant facts ? a process in which a facilitator crates the space where learners can exchange toughs and explore the issue and possible solutions)<br />
But then there is a question of content. Is there a minimum of knowledge/experience/skill  that you should have to be able to participate in this so called problem-solving education? It’s like Musa said, he did not know how kids would react on that. Are there some topics that you can learn thru open process but there are things that are better learned through other process? Or it can be combined?</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20850</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 May 2010 17:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20850</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think we can and should always keep an ideal balance of power in any kind of education or learning. The power relation will always take place in any group of people. The only thing we can distinguish between given power and obtained power. In formal education system the power is given to a teacher who decides what kind of mark the learner will get. In non-formal or informal learning the power is given to learners and this is the task of a trainer/provider to balance the power and to obtain attention and interest of learners. To my mind raising the reimbursement issue for a course attendance is demonstration of weakness but not power. By mentioning this we demonstrate that we are not able to meet needs and interests of participants in a learning process we organize. </p>
<p>Back to the common grounds. What I miss is a civic dimension of non-formal learning. To my mind this is distinctive feature of it – both during the process and as an outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Andriy Donets</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20849</link>
		<dc:creator>Andriy Donets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20849</guid>
		<description>Recently I met an interesting article in Journal of Extension (http://www.joe.org/joe/1994june/a10.php) giving me some thoughts about the difference between NFE and FE. 
NFE most often is a conflict-laden process of learning as all the people involved have their interest at stake trying to apply what they already know and can do to influence the outcome (learning based on the personal experience), whereas in formal learning system the learners are supposed to accept what a teacher presents, ask a few questions and then struggle to apply these knowledge in a real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently I met an interesting article in Journal of Extension (<a href="http://www.joe.org/joe/1994june/a10.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.joe.org/joe/1994june/a10.php</a>) giving me some thoughts about the difference between NFE and FE.<br />
NFE most often is a conflict-laden process of learning as all the people involved have their interest at stake trying to apply what they already know and can do to influence the outcome (learning based on the personal experience), whereas in formal learning system the learners are supposed to accept what a teacher presents, ask a few questions and then struggle to apply these knowledge in a real world.</p>
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		<title>By: Mara</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20579</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20579</guid>
		<description>Is all that is not formal and not informal non-formal?
I have the feeling (but a feeling is not that scientific when it comes down to definitions) that my answer would be NO. 
@Andreas: well, a &quot;definite definition&quot; :))
I think there should be no fear once you&#039;re engaging in defining something that there may be something else having those features. In several posts it looks like is NFE has a feature that also FE has, then that feature seems less connected to NFE. Which I think looks a bit like an error of logic.
I do think nowadays when we define concepts we more and more often find a continuum, at least in education. And also, you may know this, but the whole science of terminology deals nowadays with a fairly different approach than, say, 50 years ago, so it is not so important to find the last and final fundamental truth about concepts but to find those most relevant from a sociolinguistical perspective. I guess this is also the reason why the people who wrote here refer to the European connotations of NFE.
@Musa: I still think 8-year olds deserve all the respect adult do. And I also think that what often happens is that when you don&#039;t know how to transparently share power with learners, there may be a tendecy to deny they can manage power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is all that is not formal and not informal non-formal?<br />
I have the feeling (but a feeling is not that scientific when it comes down to definitions) that my answer would be NO.<br />
@Andreas: well, a &#8220;definite definition&#8221; :))<br />
I think there should be no fear once you&#8217;re engaging in defining something that there may be something else having those features. In several posts it looks like is NFE has a feature that also FE has, then that feature seems less connected to NFE. Which I think looks a bit like an error of logic.<br />
I do think nowadays when we define concepts we more and more often find a continuum, at least in education. And also, you may know this, but the whole science of terminology deals nowadays with a fairly different approach than, say, 50 years ago, so it is not so important to find the last and final fundamental truth about concepts but to find those most relevant from a sociolinguistical perspective. I guess this is also the reason why the people who wrote here refer to the European connotations of NFE.<br />
@Musa: I still think 8-year olds deserve all the respect adult do. And I also think that what often happens is that when you don&#8217;t know how to transparently share power with learners, there may be a tendecy to deny they can manage power.</p>
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		<title>By: Musa Akgul</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20572</link>
		<dc:creator>Musa Akgul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20572</guid>
		<description>I totally agree mainly with last words of Suncana, that the NFE is very important and the FE is very important, too. When it comes to such discussion it became a huge dilemma to me...
For me there is this power issue in both and the power of the power issue differs in both but maybe it is a need for teachers to have more power in FE than the learners and it depends so much on age and environment. Primary school would be a simple example, what would happen if the power was given to the students who are 8 years old? I do not know, I am not competent enough to answer this question...
How would be the learning and the quality of education if the NFE was used at universities and if the power had given to the learners other then the professors? Again I am not sure but it sounds really logical when I am taking the age and the life experience of that students (who are at university), but as I said still not sure...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree mainly with last words of Suncana, that the NFE is very important and the FE is very important, too. When it comes to such discussion it became a huge dilemma to me&#8230;<br />
For me there is this power issue in both and the power of the power issue differs in both but maybe it is a need for teachers to have more power in FE than the learners and it depends so much on age and environment. Primary school would be a simple example, what would happen if the power was given to the students who are 8 years old? I do not know, I am not competent enough to answer this question&#8230;<br />
How would be the learning and the quality of education if the NFE was used at universities and if the power had given to the learners other then the professors? Again I am not sure but it sounds really logical when I am taking the age and the life experience of that students (who are at university), but as I said still not sure&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: suncana</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20478</link>
		<dc:creator>suncana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20478</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;m not going to give the answers but it seems we are trying to fin a way to make diffenrences between FE and NFE so&#8230;..<br />
While reading this posts i like the fact that non-formal education is not considered just as the one that is different from Formal or informal edu. </p>
<p>Maybe I’m the wrong example cause I’m a social worker and I’m just finishing the postgraduate study  about supervision in social work but this debate made me think how this education is different from the ones that I’m involved within NFE.<br />
 And I must say there is not that much difference:<br />
-	it s voluntary ( I have chosen to sigh in, I could choose to come or not on the „classes“, or to see which ones I will attend)<br />
-	it was done by using non-formal methodology<br />
-	we were completely active (to the fact that I wished to get some lecture to whom I could just listen)<br />
-	it id respect different kind of learning styles 8we even had a special subject on it)<br />
-	there was a balance between knowledge and development of skills<br />
-	we  discussed ethical values (thou in context of supervision and relations to people involved in it)<br />
-	we had people who lead workshops from all over Europe (thou participants were only from Croatia)<br />
-	was process oriented (maybe because supervision is process oriented too)<br />
-	was learner centered (we made our individual learning plans…..)<br />
-	did involve individuals and groups<br />
-	was based on our experiences and needs<br />
-	has supportative learning environment<br />
and then we have these:<br />
-	Grades- we had exams at the end but not exams like in primary school. Some professors just gave us all excellent just because we were there and we were active, some made a task to read something to write about it and then to discuss about it with him/her. There was actually only one exam that checked our knowledge. And this way of learning was very hard for some people.<br />
-	I’ve got an feeling they the grades are there just because FE has to have them but no one was taking them seriously. at least I didn&#8217;t<br />
-	Power relation- maybe it about me aging. But I did not feel that so much power is in professors’ hands. Maybe I did not gave them that much. Now when I think about it some of mine colleagues did see them as more important, powerful, smarter……well to be honest I can not say that the all power relations were like in training but some were. And the thing with power  is that you have as much power as much people give to you.<br />
-	and  that leaves the topics. we did not tackle issues like peace, tolerance, social justice, intercultural learning, gender equality. but I’m not sure that topics could be the main criteria for distinguishing FE and NFE</p>
<p>so, yes NFE is developing but FE is developing too. They are seeing things that have good influence on learning process and they are using it.</p>
<p>so it seems that the distinguishing between formal and non-formal education will be even harder to see in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20462</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20462</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Another question is maybe it is time to change the present term non-formal for something else?&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Totally. And why not? The kind of education you describe here

&lt;em&gt;&quot;Non-formal education is any organised educational activity which challenges existing formal systems and leading to finding alternatives, innovations and change.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

I would call that empowerment education, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Another question is maybe it is time to change the present term non-formal for something else?</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Totally. And why not? The kind of education you describe here</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Non-formal education is any organised educational activity which challenges existing formal systems and leading to finding alternatives, innovations and change.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>I would call that empowerment education, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20461</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20461</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just found this in Siurala, Lasse (2006) Non-formal learning as an educational approach. It&#8217;s a chapter in Dorin Festeu and Barbara Humberstone (eds.) Non-formal education through outdoor activities guide. European Institute of Outdoor Education and Experiental Learning, Buckinghamshire, UK. <a href="http://www.eoe-network.org/NFE/LearningZoneG/LZ_Guide.htm" rel="nofollow">Can be downloaded.</a></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Non-formal learning is a learner-centred and practice based learning process which emphasises intrinsic motivation, the usefulness of knowledge and critical thinking (rather than objective knowledge and memorizing) and aims at identity growth, social change and integration into society. Learning is voluntary, involves conscious educational aims and may be credited. It is often linked to terms like ‘experiental learning’, ‘empowerment’, ‘social pedagogy’, ‘participation’, ‘active citizenship’ and ‘social inclusion’. Non-formal learning may take place in public sector activities like social work, youth work, sports and cultural work, in working life and in civil society activities like in nongovernmental organisations, or in partnership with a variety of actors as is often the case in community work and social projects.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Andriy Donets</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20459</link>
		<dc:creator>Andriy Donets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20459</guid>
		<description>@Bastian
Talking about civic dimension I did meant the process first and secondly the content.  Probably I failed to find the best English word for this dimension. By using the word &quot;civic&quot; I meant the Latin etymology of the word - &quot;related to a city, society, citizens&quot;. In relation to NFE I think interaction with society as a whole or some smaller group of human beings during the process of learning is vital. Whereas in formal education the learner may learn in his/her own and the only person he/she needs is the one who will check the knowledge. Nowadays we often don&#039;t even need to have a human being as our knowledge can be evaluated and graded by a computer application. A computer can also generate and send us certificate and here we are... specialists! So when I talk about NFE I mean there is always interaction of alive human beings who cares about the atmosphere of their interaction and the process of their learning, even if these human beings are in the different sides of computers.

As for the power relations Thanks! Andreas, they should be fair. In case of educator the power/authority should be obtained in the process of interaction with the learner. In its term the power of learner is to show dissatisfaction and to change the educator. May this be often possible in the formal education? 

To my mind these have nothing to do with European non-formal youth training as society and power are universal notwithstanding the part of the world. But this is if we are talking about the features.  

@Andreas
Another question is maybe it is time to change the present term non-formal for something else? The term appeared at times of education system crisis and was a response on new social/civil demands. In this regard transformation of pagan beliefs to something known as religion is also the results of non-formal learning. When the set, formal structures could not meet social/civil demands it had lead to non-formal, alternative, different, other than formal and widely accepted doctrine. The process repeated and formal religious structures were reformed. Maybe when present non-formal learning will be fully recognised it will not be non-formal anymore. May be non-formal should not be perceived negatively but as a means for alternative, creativity, innovation and change.  

&lt;i&gt;So Non-formal education is any organised educational activity which challenges existing formal systems and leading to finding alternatives, innovations and change&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bastian<br />
Talking about civic dimension I did meant the process first and secondly the content.  Probably I failed to find the best English word for this dimension. By using the word &#8220;civic&#8221; I meant the Latin etymology of the word &#8211; &#8220;related to a city, society, citizens&#8221;. In relation to NFE I think interaction with society as a whole or some smaller group of human beings during the process of learning is vital. Whereas in formal education the learner may learn in his/her own and the only person he/she needs is the one who will check the knowledge. Nowadays we often don&#8217;t even need to have a human being as our knowledge can be evaluated and graded by a computer application. A computer can also generate and send us certificate and here we are&#8230; specialists! So when I talk about NFE I mean there is always interaction of alive human beings who cares about the atmosphere of their interaction and the process of their learning, even if these human beings are in the different sides of computers.</p>
<p>As for the power relations Thanks! Andreas, they should be fair. In case of educator the power/authority should be obtained in the process of interaction with the learner. In its term the power of learner is to show dissatisfaction and to change the educator. May this be often possible in the formal education? </p>
<p>To my mind these have nothing to do with European non-formal youth training as society and power are universal notwithstanding the part of the world. But this is if we are talking about the features.  </p>
<p>@Andreas<br />
Another question is maybe it is time to change the present term non-formal for something else? The term appeared at times of education system crisis and was a response on new social/civil demands. In this regard transformation of pagan beliefs to something known as religion is also the results of non-formal learning. When the set, formal structures could not meet social/civil demands it had lead to non-formal, alternative, different, other than formal and widely accepted doctrine. The process repeated and formal religious structures were reformed. Maybe when present non-formal learning will be fully recognised it will not be non-formal anymore. May be non-formal should not be perceived negatively but as a means for alternative, creativity, innovation and change.  </p>
<p><i>So Non-formal education is any organised educational activity which challenges existing formal systems and leading to finding alternatives, innovations and change</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas Karsten</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20455</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20455</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Why do we need the definite definition of non-formal education?&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are several answers to that question&#8212;and quite possibly asking the question (thanks Nerijus!) and finding answers will contribute to possible definitions:

&lt;em&gt;a. So far, non-formal education is mainly defined negatively, as being not formal education. It seems that for many educators in the field this is not sufficient any longer &#8211; and, historically, it&#039;s also somewhat absurd.

b. The strive for recognition of the field&#8212;and the competences acquired by learners in non-formal education&#8212;call for being able to explain what actually happens, what it is we do, why it is relevant.

c. Our educational approach is rooted in fair power relations between educators and learners&#8212;in distinct difference to formal education&#8212;but without a clear definition the power leverage will always be in favour of the educator. Being learner-centred should also mean being able to clearly explain why and what we do and how &#8211; not after or during an educational experience, but before.&lt;/em&gt;

Quite possibly, the last argument is the most important one; I would consider a clear definition to be an essential and overdue element of the empowerment of learners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>Why do we need the definite definition of non-formal education?</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>There are several answers to that question&#8212;and quite possibly asking the question (thanks Nerijus!) and finding answers will contribute to possible definitions:</p>
<p><em>a. So far, non-formal education is mainly defined negatively, as being not formal education. It seems that for many educators in the field this is not sufficient any longer &#8211; and, historically, it&#8217;s also somewhat absurd.</p>
<p>b. The strive for recognition of the field&#8212;and the competences acquired by learners in non-formal education&#8212;call for being able to explain what actually happens, what it is we do, why it is relevant.</p>
<p>c. Our educational approach is rooted in fair power relations between educators and learners&#8212;in distinct difference to formal education&#8212;but without a clear definition the power leverage will always be in favour of the educator. Being learner-centred should also mean being able to clearly explain why and what we do and how &#8211; not after or during an educational experience, but before.</em></p>
<p>Quite possibly, the last argument is the most important one; I would consider a clear definition to be an essential and overdue element of the empowerment of learners.</p>
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		<title>By: nerijus</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20454</link>
		<dc:creator>nerijus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20454</guid>
		<description>If looking beyond &quot;closed European youth training&quot; I would like to share some links which kept my curiosity and &quot;have a look back&quot; from outside to our non-formal education sector:

Quest to Learn - an experiment school based on games, cooperation and new technology: http://q2l.org/

Private business schools in Sweden: http://www.kunskapsskolan.se/foretaget/inenglish.4.1d32e45f86b8ae04c7fff213.html

Struggle for homeschooling in Sweden: http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/
And arguments in favour of the right to homeschool: http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/articles-additiona/download-main-article/HSCCMW.pdf?attredirects=0

and the movement of unschooling: http://www.unschooling.com/index.shtml

why all these links for the sake of the debate on the definition of non-formal education? 

To some extent it tells me that &quot;we&quot; in non-formal education sector (however we define it precisely) are not so &quot;unique&quot; in the sense of what we offer to deliver - critical thinking, learning to learn and so on. there are examples of &quot;formal education&quot; contributing or at least trying to do so for critical consciousness. Secondly, it is a lot about power struggles (with different intentions probably) for the education do be &quot;free&quot;. Which might seem scary unless uncertainty is welcomed and appreciated. But when it comes back to &quot;our need&quot; to define &quot;non-formal education&quot;.

And I want to ask opnely why we need the definite definition of non-formal education? To understand better its essence? To be able explain it to others? To convince others? To get access to do what we believe in?

Getting lost somewhere...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If looking beyond &#8220;closed European youth training&#8221; I would like to share some links which kept my curiosity and &#8220;have a look back&#8221; from outside to our non-formal education sector:</p>
<p>Quest to Learn &#8211; an experiment school based on games, cooperation and new technology: <a href="http://q2l.org/" rel="nofollow">http://q2l.org/</a></p>
<p>Private business schools in Sweden: <a href="http://www.kunskapsskolan.se/foretaget/inenglish.4.1d32e45f86b8ae04c7fff213.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kunskapsskolan.se/foretaget/inenglish.4.1d32e45f86b8ae04c7fff213.html</a></p>
<p>Struggle for homeschooling in Sweden: <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/" rel="nofollow">http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/</a><br />
And arguments in favour of the right to homeschool: <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/articles-additiona/download-main-article/HSCCMW.pdf?attredirects=0" rel="nofollow">http://sites.google.com/site/homeschoolinginsweden/articles-additiona/download-main-article/HSCCMW.pdf?attredirects=0</a></p>
<p>and the movement of unschooling: <a href="http://www.unschooling.com/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.unschooling.com/index.shtml</a></p>
<p>why all these links for the sake of the debate on the definition of non-formal education? </p>
<p>To some extent it tells me that &#8220;we&#8221; in non-formal education sector (however we define it precisely) are not so &#8220;unique&#8221; in the sense of what we offer to deliver &#8211; critical thinking, learning to learn and so on. there are examples of &#8220;formal education&#8221; contributing or at least trying to do so for critical consciousness. Secondly, it is a lot about power struggles (with different intentions probably) for the education do be &#8220;free&#8221;. Which might seem scary unless uncertainty is welcomed and appreciated. But when it comes back to &#8220;our need&#8221; to define &#8220;non-formal education&#8221;.</p>
<p>And I want to ask opnely why we need the definite definition of non-formal education? To understand better its essence? To be able explain it to others? To convince others? To get access to do what we believe in?</p>
<p>Getting lost somewhere&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: tomek</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20453</link>
		<dc:creator>tomek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 16:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20453</guid>
		<description>From my selfunderstanding as a trainers the NFE is very much about taking over the responsibility for the learning from the &quot;system&quot; and giving it in the hands of the learner: It is for me a very philosophical issue where the human is reaching his real nature in the moment when he/she is feeling the learning as an central point of his identity, NFE is in my opinion very much the way for it.
Because on the one hand, we try to create a learner centred approach, an independent social structure and and life-long approach. The paridgma-shift in the &quot;nature of learning&quot; from the school and university towards the self-directed learning based on the &quot;learning to learn&quot;-competence is an essential change for me as a learner.
In my opinion it leads the learner towards a huge identity question: &quot;who am i and where i want to develop?&quot; so to Descarte&#039;s  &quot;I think, therefore I am&quot; could be add &quot; i learn, therefore i will be&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my selfunderstanding as a trainers the NFE is very much about taking over the responsibility for the learning from the &#8220;system&#8221; and giving it in the hands of the learner: It is for me a very philosophical issue where the human is reaching his real nature in the moment when he/she is feeling the learning as an central point of his identity, NFE is in my opinion very much the way for it.<br />
Because on the one hand, we try to create a learner centred approach, an independent social structure and and life-long approach. The paridgma-shift in the &#8220;nature of learning&#8221; from the school and university towards the self-directed learning based on the &#8220;learning to learn&#8221;-competence is an essential change for me as a learner.<br />
In my opinion it leads the learner towards a huge identity question: &#8220;who am i and where i want to develop?&#8221; so to Descarte&#8217;s  &#8220;I think, therefore I am&#8221; could be add &#8221; i learn, therefore i will be&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20452</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20452</guid>
		<description>You are right, Pablo, your previous comment takes a much more global and universal approach; but why does the discussion always return to the unrepresentative&#8212;some might even say: narrow&#8212;context of European nonformal youth training?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, Pablo, your previous comment takes a much more global and universal approach; but why does the discussion always return to the unrepresentative&#8212;some might even say: narrow&#8212;context of European nonformal youth training?</p>
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20451</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20451</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That´s the point, we focus a lot in our closed, self-referenced EU youth training world.<br />
At least my comment tried to think about NFE as a such in the historical, social and political level; that comes first. The way we use NFE in EU youth training is just a small part of  which can not be considered the whole but just a part.<br />
There is a need of a holistic education using different approaches and dealing more with social realities than with &#8220;public&#8221; interests (as being educated for becoming an elite or a future factory worker which seems the case of actual formal education and its itineraries).</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20450</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20450</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t we discussing a definition of nonformal youth training much more than a definition of nonformal education or learning? Because if we would, we would need to look at the cultural and political specificity of nonformal education, and we would need to get away from our solely European and European-level perspective &#8211; to include, for example, the three types of nonformal education for developing nations that Berrie Brennan has put forward in his 1997 article &quot;Reconceptualizing non-formal education&quot; for the International Journal of Lifelong Education.

Is looking at the dimensions of content, context, purpose and process of a learning situation really useful outside the small circle of European-level youth trainers &#8211; or useful beyond the perspective of the educator?

Brennan argues that NFE can be either complementary, alternative or supplementary to the formal education system, but also looks at the limitations and problems of defining something negatively, as is the case with NFE of course.

How can we approach and construct a definition of nonformal education that holds beyond the small world of European-level youth training?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t we discussing a definition of nonformal youth training much more than a definition of nonformal education or learning? Because if we would, we would need to look at the cultural and political specificity of nonformal education, and we would need to get away from our solely European and European-level perspective &#8211; to include, for example, the three types of nonformal education for developing nations that Berrie Brennan has put forward in his 1997 article &#8220;Reconceptualizing non-formal education&#8221; for the International Journal of Lifelong Education.</p>
<p>Is looking at the dimensions of content, context, purpose and process of a learning situation really useful outside the small circle of European-level youth trainers &#8211; or useful beyond the perspective of the educator?</p>
<p>Brennan argues that NFE can be either complementary, alternative or supplementary to the formal education system, but also looks at the limitations and problems of defining something negatively, as is the case with NFE of course.</p>
<p>How can we approach and construct a definition of nonformal education that holds beyond the small world of European-level youth training?</p>
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		<title>By: Bastian</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20449</link>
		<dc:creator>Bastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20449</guid>
		<description>I agree that the content dimension of non-formal education as a distinctive civic dimension. I&#039;m not sure I understand in how far there is a civic dimension in the process, as I see it predominantly in the purpose and content of non formal education. 
I disagree, however, that in non-formal and informal education, power is given to the learners. First of all, I don&#039;t think that in informal education there is a power dimension, as the differentiation between learner and trainer/facilitator/teacher does not fit into this. In non-formal learning settings the facilitators and trainers always control to some point how much power the participants and learners will get in certain parts of the programme. During an input, participants have no power, during reflection groups, a bit more. In a youth exchange the participants might have more power than in a seminar, however they both belong to the &#039;world of non-formal education&#039;. This is exactly why I think we should be very careful with the easy, but as such also sometimes simplistic, differentiation into only three categories (formal, non-formal and informal learning/education) and look more careful at the dimensions of content, context, purpose and process of any given learning situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the content dimension of non-formal education as a distinctive civic dimension. I&#8217;m not sure I understand in how far there is a civic dimension in the process, as I see it predominantly in the purpose and content of non formal education.<br />
I disagree, however, that in non-formal and informal education, power is given to the learners. First of all, I don&#8217;t think that in informal education there is a power dimension, as the differentiation between learner and trainer/facilitator/teacher does not fit into this. In non-formal learning settings the facilitators and trainers always control to some point how much power the participants and learners will get in certain parts of the programme. During an input, participants have no power, during reflection groups, a bit more. In a youth exchange the participants might have more power than in a seminar, however they both belong to the &#8216;world of non-formal education&#8217;. This is exactly why I think we should be very careful with the easy, but as such also sometimes simplistic, differentiation into only three categories (formal, non-formal and informal learning/education) and look more careful at the dimensions of content, context, purpose and process of any given learning situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Andriy Donets</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20440</link>
		<dc:creator>Andriy Donets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20440</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think we can and should always keep an ideal balance of power in any kind of education or learning. The power relation will always take place in any group of people. The only thing we can distinguish between given power and obtained power. In formal education system the power is given to a teacher who decides what kind of mark the learner will get. In non-formal or informal learning the power is given to learners and this is the task of a trainer/provider to balance the power and to obtain attention and interest of learners. To my mind raising the reimbursement issue for a course attendance is demonstration of weakness but not power. By mentioning this we demonstrate that we are not able to meet needs and interests of participants in a learning process we organize. </p>
<p>Back to the common grounds. What I miss is a civic dimension of non-formal learning. To my mind this is distinctive feature of it – both during the process and as an outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Pablo</title>
		<link>http://www.nonformality.org/2009/11/defining-nonformal-learning/#comment-20410</link>
		<dc:creator>Pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nonformality.org/?p=1494#comment-20410</guid>
		<description>All about power!! But power is a body which get born, &quot;evolves&quot;, die and even can reborn again. What about non-formal education appearing as a reaction of a dying body &quot;power&quot;? My two cents:

&quot;From a long time ago, the crisis of the formal education was announced.
While the time went by, the effectivenes of formal education to afford social crisis, especially within the two World Wars, made obvious the needed changes at education methodologies.

At the sixties, with the social revolution to try to find out alternatives to the 19th century ideals which led us to the Wars, appears in the civil sector the concepts and methodologies to work at the area of education in skills and attitudes, which were developed beforehand at other fields like the militar and religious oriented training or the youth work.

Since then, we can consider three types of global methodologies of education, which tried to find their own space without real integration, facing nowadays the needings of bridges to merge these methodologies at the hope of produce a better education for a better society instead of an endless struggle for power&quot; so, certainly if formal education uses for its own sake non formal methodologies without changing power-relations and the vission formal public education was born with, the utopia is useless as Andreas commented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All about power!! But power is a body which get born, &#8220;evolves&#8221;, die and even can reborn again. What about non-formal education appearing as a reaction of a dying body &#8220;power&#8221;? My two cents:</p>
<p>&#8220;From a long time ago, the crisis of the formal education was announced.<br />
While the time went by, the effectivenes of formal education to afford social crisis, especially within the two World Wars, made obvious the needed changes at education methodologies.</p>
<p>At the sixties, with the social revolution to try to find out alternatives to the 19th century ideals which led us to the Wars, appears in the civil sector the concepts and methodologies to work at the area of education in skills and attitudes, which were developed beforehand at other fields like the militar and religious oriented training or the youth work.</p>
<p>Since then, we can consider three types of global methodologies of education, which tried to find their own space without real integration, facing nowadays the needings of bridges to merge these methodologies at the hope of produce a better education for a better society instead of an endless struggle for power&#8221; so, certainly if formal education uses for its own sake non formal methodologies without changing power-relations and the vission formal public education was born with, the utopia is useless as Andreas commented.</p>
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